Curse

Jetdoc · Jan 02, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I guess it really depends on what your definition of "tanking" is...

1. Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe are very useful if you have multiple enemies surrounding you. However, if you fail to obtain aggro, the skills are insanely weaker than their normal axe counterparts.

2. The lack of any stances (albiet somewhat replaced by the party damage reduction of "They're on Fire") makes your "tank" a bit more vulnerable to attacks than a normal stance tank (especially with Riposte/Deadly Riposte/Auspicious Parry) would be.

Overall, a very nice party-buffing/competent tank build!

Retribution X · Jan 02, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Personally, I'd replace Triple chop with Defensive Anthem, Cyclone axe with Bladeturn refrain, and Agressive Refrain with "Make Your Time!".

Othen than that, sounds pretty solid.

And yes, I have a paragon.

Dutch Masterr · Jan 02, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

definatley a good party buff build with great offense, but i wouldnt say it is "better than any w/mo or random koss build". you simply cant "tank" with this build because there is no actual defense or blocking/evading. if you decided to run into a mob like a tank would, you would get torn apart. this build is a great example of what a paragon's job is though--buffing your party and providing some offense. leave the true tanking to the warriors though....(healing hands/dolyak sig is a not what i mean by tank)

Moa Bird Cultist · Jan 02, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Alternatively, people could get over the outdated concept of a tank being 100% about defence and stances. Warriors do not need to bring stances to be effective tanks, so why should a Paragon with comparable armour? As for the build's worth, It looks like it has the makings of a great addition to any party, but I'll save final judgement till I test it for myself.

Also Zinger, don't let the guildwiki thing get you down - I remember a time when I, was told by a monk to gtfo, because critical strikes only worked with daggers and it said so on the wiki forums. Trouble is, he was so insistent that critical barrage didn't work, that I ended up laughing my head off...

But yeah, moral of the story: As good as Wiki is, it and by extension, the people on it, aren't always right.

Zinger314 · Jan 02, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omnis

edit: Okay, Morgahn still doesn't use any of the echoes. The build is useless on him; I might as well bring Koss like the others have said, and keep Morgahn for party support.

How much testing did you do? Did you just walk, kill a mob, and say "it doesn't work?" If you do that, Morgahn will cast Aggressive Refrain, and won't have enough Energy for Shouts/Chants for a little time. I do most of my testing by clearing an entire zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Personally, I'd replace Triple chop with Defensive Anthem, Cyclone axe with Bladeturn refrain, and Agressive Refrain with "Make Your Time!".

Othen than that, sounds pretty solid.

And yes, I have a paragon.

So, you'd completely neuter both Offensive power and Adrenaline gain for...a redundant defense increase. Right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

definatley a good party buff build with great offense, but i wouldnt say it is "better than any w/mo or random koss build". you simply cant "tank" with this build because there is no actual defense or blocking/evading.

And a 47% damage reduction doesn't count as "actual defense?!"

I agree with Moa Bird Cultist. Stances are unnecessary for a "tank."

Also, keep in mind that dodge/block stances only affect physical damage. A Melee character will not easily hold aggro against a character like that (Warrior, Dervish, Assassin) due to the AI update in Nightfall. This build atleast provides protection incase that happens, and also against casters.

Dutch Masterr · Jan 02, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

yes the 47% damage reduction is great, but not every single target will be burning constantly. warriors also have skills like "watch yourself" and dolyak signet that increases their armor. also with sentinels armor they have 100 base armor vs physical and elemental, which paragons dont have.

dont get me wrong, this is a great build, probably the best paragon build ive seen actually. all im saying is it doesnt take the place of a warrior. if there is a warrior or two in the party, just think of the devestating effects this build will have.

Jetdoc · Jan 02, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Also, keep in mind that dodge/block stances only affect physical damage.

Is this correct? I'm fairly certain that stances that do not specify the types of attacks they block work against all types of attack damage (i.e. other than vampiric, which isn't damage), not just physical.

Zinger314 · Jan 02, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Is this correct? I'm fairly certain that stances that do not specify the types of attacks they block work against all types of attack damage (i.e. other than vampiric, which isn't damage), not just physical.

Alright, all melee and Ranger weapons. Yeesh, I apoligize for not being politically correct.

(And Caster projectiles...)

Jetdoc · Jan 02, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Actually, I'm making the distinction because a stance tank's primary role is normally to engage the enemy's melee characters to keep them off the backlines. As long as the enemy is using attacks and attack skills, I would suspect that the damage mitigation provided by blocking/evade stances generally would exceed the damage reduction provided by They're on Fire.

However, I agree that your build is exceptional as it provides protection to the entire party, which helps with the caster attacks and those melee characters that slip through the tank aggro.

I'm very interested to see this in play, especially since it has some offensive capability.

Any thought as to replacing the AoE Triple Chop/Cyclone Axe attacks with more traditional either sword or axe attacks? Maybe a snare to help with the aggro control, such as Axe Rake or Hamstring?

Moa Bird Cultist · Jan 02, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

yes the 47% damage reduction is great, but not every single target will be burning constantly. warriors also have skills like "watch yourself" and dolyak signet that increases their armor. also with sentinels armor they have 100 base armor vs physical and elemental, which paragons dont have.

dont get me wrong, this is a great build, probably the best paragon build ive seen actually. all im saying is it doesnt take the place of a warrior. if there is a warrior or two in the party, just think of the devestating effects this build will have.

Unfortunately, you cited Dolyaks Signet and Sentinels Armour. Apart from Dolyak's reducing movement dramatically, theres also the fact that both of these are reliant on the worst primary attribute in the game - strength. As for watch yourself, with the recent balance, you now have to forgo a lot of offensive power to make it worth running. My opinion is, warriors are much better off attacking. Defensively, skills wise, Paragons are far superior, due to their ability to spam shouts, all of which tend to be superior to their warrior equivalent. In the case of this build, the synergy of skills, means that attack and defence augment each over a great deal.

Burning will not be on all foes 100% of the time, it's true, but it affects all allies in range, including yourself. It's not perfect, but there are no perfect warrior stances either - all of them come with a caveat of some sort, whether it be a short duration, reduced move speed, cannot use skills, etc. Plus, not one stance in the game affects multiple allies. The closest thing is protector's defence, which is great if you just plan on sitting there while the enemy melee units run about causing merry hell and even then, it's crippled by it's recharge time. Ironically, it actually works better in the hands of a spear equipped Paragon/Warrior, as they dont need to move as much as a melee character would...

Oh, Jetdoc, what you say is very significant, it's true, but the difference between a stance tank and just a tank should be clearer, or rather, the lack of difference, because ultimately, their role is broadly the same - to attract as much aggro as possible. What this build has over such a role, is that it's able to cover for the likely eventuality that the enemy will break aggro with the tank. Although, I know you're aware of this, I think that honestly, provided you have a character running motivation to augment this, a pure tank would not be needed and the warriors can concentrate on doing what they do even better than tanking - cracking heads

clawofcrimson · Jan 02, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I think you guys may be forgeting that this build also provides damage reduction for a whole team.... if you added the amount absorbed by a stance tank and this one (including the whole party) you may find that they are on par with eachother...as to which is "better" ....personal preference...imho

its a matter of managing shouts vs. stances on self...of the two I would say the easier to play would be the stances/signets (whatever your warrior tanks with) because it usually targets only self....but this build may actually provide more overall damage absorbtion for the team....but .....be my guest to do the math

Omnis · Jan 03, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

How much testing did you do? Did you just walk, kill a mob, and say "it doesn't work?" If you do that, Morgahn will cast Aggressive Refrain, and won't have enough Energy for Shouts/Chants for a little time. I do most of my testing by clearing an entire zone.

Yeah, I went through a few missions and zones with it taking all different kinds of approaches. The build is great (I'm using it on my paragon), but it doesn't work for Morgahn without some type of micromanagement. I'm just reporting my observations.

ubermancer · Jan 03, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Im sorry, but I love my Warrior too much to convert. Its decent, if the aggro is on you, but the Warrior is more flexible.

For reference's sake, and in part support for my above claim, I tanked Urgoz last night with:

Shield's Up
Rage of the Ntouka {E}
Watch Yourself
Rush
Shield Stance
Dolyak Signet
Signet of Stamina
Rebirth

Used a Furious Summit Axe of Defense, and a -2/-2 shield. 14 Strength, 13 Tactics. Had 813 health, and could tank Thorn Wolves with 7 damage reduction, 75% block, and 198 armor (80 base 20 phys 10 insignia 50 shout 22 WY 16 shield).

Maybe its the fault of my imagination, but I just dont see my Paragon being able to do that quite as effectively.

Retribution X · Jan 03, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Make your time gives adrenaline.

I'd keep points in axe mastery or sword, so they can still fight.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jan 03, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Yeah, it does, but it's surplus to requirements to make the build function as intended. Anyhow, taking the skills away kills the offensive power of the build - the whole point of c.axe and t.chop is they hit multiple targets for burning.

Retribution X · Jan 03, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Well, Moa, Kast time I used Anthem of flame with cyclone axe, it only burnt the target.

They're in the build for Adrenaline building. (I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I modded the build the way I did for RoT. And it helps those stupid Ele's that try to tank...

Zinger314 · Jan 03, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Make your time gives adrenaline.

30 second cooldown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Well, Moa, Kast time I used Anthem of flame with cyclone axe, it only burnt the target.

They're in the build for Adrenaline building. (I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

They are in the build for both Adrenaline generation and AoE Damage.

Also, using Anthem of Flame will burn all adjacent foes, regardless of your attack; Remember Blazing Finale!

Retribution X · Jan 04, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

OK. sorry bout that there. Leave Cyclone in. (instead of make your time)

Although I like Triple chop, I'd still drop it, and use Focused Anger.

And leave agressive refrain in the build.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jan 04, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

It's such a relief to see that this build isn't in the unfavoured category on wiki any more. out of pure curiosity, how well do you think this would work with a P/R Barrage set up?

Retribution X · Jan 04, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Not as well, because the barrage only applies burning to the target foe, and not the others.